Vin Di Bona & Syd Vinnedge Q&A followup to 'Reality Bytes'

[David Metzler]

Monday April 28th The Caucus and NATPE hosted 'Reality Bytes: The Ins & Outs of Developing, Selling & Producing Your Reality Series (http://www.caucus.org/newsletter/newsletter042909b.html)'.
As a special follow-up to that event, Caucus members Vin Di Bona (http://www.caucus.org/members/Di_Bona.html) and Syd Vinnedge have agreed to join us online and take some questions from visitors here in the forums. This is an informal Q&A, so feel free to jump in with a specific question for either one or both, or a followup to the reality panel on Monday. Just post a 'reply' to this message or any post below to get started.

This online session will be open for a limited time - through May 11th. Vin is busy producing America's Funniest Home Videos, and Syd is doing The Price is Right, so get your questions in quickly - they will answer as many as they can.

If you have a question about producting, writing, directing, pitching or selling reality TV - we've got two TV veterans here for you.

Please join me in welcoming Vin Di Bona and Syd Vinnedge!

[TDeVolld]

Syd and Vin:

Thanks for participating in the panel event and for taking these additional questions.

First question:
I once pitched an NBC/Uni cable development exec who liked my show very much, but whose superior decided it was “too dark for the network" based almost entirely on his reaction to a single graphic included in our leave-behind package. Am I doing myself in by arming myself with support materials beyond a simple three-minute tape and a well-defined concept?

Second question:
Over the last ten years or so, I have noticed that newer show creators are usually partnered with producers or production companies known to the networks, which only makes sense. Is it wiser for me to have an arrangement with an established producer/prodco in place at the pitch or will the network more likely suggest a pairing at the time the concept moves forward (as was the case with a WB series I worked on)?

[Syd Vinnedge]

If you have a well defined concept and a good three minute tape....get out of the room. We all have a tendency to keep selling even though the pitch is over and any additional info runs the risk of sending the train off the rails. Hopefully they buy into your concept, they become your "partner" and are invested. Then you begin sharing all the additional bells and whistles.
The obvious exception (as was suggested Monday night) is a star or rights/info from another country or something that gives the buyer enough comfort to mitigate their risk.

[Syd Vinnedge]

If you can go into the room with Bruckheimer then it is to your advantage. You are then using a partner as a star and frankly they are not going to be a lot of help down in the trenches.
Otherwise pick your partners because they enhance the project relative to how much they are going to take. And if they do enhance the project then their value should be apparent to the buyer.

[TDeVolld]

Title says it all. Thanks, Syd.

[docsam]

Thanks for taking the time.

I have a question about something that was mentioned at the panel on Monday - I think Vin mentioned going to Brittan and sitting in a room taking a meeting every 30 minutes. What are those meetings like? Are they all producers trying to sell their show in the US? And if so - are we outsourcing reality TV development just like we outsourced customer service to India?

[Vin Di Bona]

Syd and Vin:


First question:
I once pitched an NBC/Uni cable development exec who liked my show very much, but whose superior decided it was “too dark for the network" based almost entirely on his reaction to a single graphic included in our leave-behind package. Am I doing myself in by arming myself with support materials beyond a simple three-minute tape and a well-defined concept?

Second question:
Over the last ten years or so, I have noticed that newer show creators are usually partnered with producers or production companies known to the networks, which only makes sense. Is it wiser for me to have an arrangement with an established producer/prodco in place at the pitch or will the network more likely suggest a pairing at the time the concept moves forward (as was the case with a WB series I worked on)?

About NBCU pitch graphic:

It’s hard to second guess what to leave behind. Recently, before the shake up at NBC, graphics was a real problem. I did a pilot 2 years ago in which I showed the execs what the look of the show would be BEFORE we taped the show. The graphics were based on a demo from Japan. They were approved before we taped and then changed 6 times before we turned in the show….made me nutz! We sometimes say to ourselves….”is this and NBC, ABC, FOX show?”
Then we realize that we may be selling ourselves short by trying to guess what the network wants. If the log line in the pitch is short, usually you’ll know in a few minutes if you’ve got their attention…if not move on to the next pitch. Always try to take in two, at the most three GOOD pitches into a meeting if possible.

About partnering…it always helps to have a STRONG partner on a project. If you have a relationship with a junior network exec, it’s not a bad idea to find out who they like to work with. If you don’t know anyone at the network, do some homework and look at producer credits at the end of the network’s shows…those are the people to pitch to. If you are a first time producer, don’t try to “cash in” on your project. Make a fair deal, after all the production company you partner with will take all the risk if the project goes over budget. The learning experience is the most important aspect here. Try to get a fair production fee a format royalty if possible and be tied to the show for its entire run.

[Vin Di Bona]

Thanks for taking the time.

I have a question about something that was mentioned at the panel on Monday - I think Vin mentioned going to Brittan and sitting in a room taking a meeting every 30 minutes. What are those meetings like? Are they all producers trying to sell their show in the US? And if so - are we outsourcing reality TV development just like we outsourced customer service to India?

About the UK meetings…It’s a two way street. We pitch to them and they to us. We see if we actually like the people pitching us and if their ideas will work on both sides of the pond. Yes it’s mostly producer to producer; moreover, this is one of the few times a paper pitch may actually work because it is producer to producer and there is a short hand here that often doesn’t happen at a network pitch. It turns out to be a long, long day as we try to maximize out time there. Most of the important contacts happen at lunch or dinner…what else is new!

[TDeVolld]

Thanks, Vin.

[David Metzler]

Caucus Members: Audio of the Reality Bytes panel is now online. Click here (http://forums.caucus.org/showthread.php?t=1144) to access it. NOTE: the link will only work for caucus members; if you have trouble accessing it please contact Penny or I at forums@caucus.org to verify you have access.

[newbie]

Who do I need to sleep with to get a reality agent?

Seriously though - if I don't have any producer credits, will I have a shot at pitching a show idea? Would I be better off finding an entertainment lawyer?

[David Metzler]

Quick reminder to all those lurkers out there - this thread is taking questions through Monday, so members & non-members alike, post your thoughts and inquiries now. Great questions so far, let's hear what else is on your mind. Hit the 'post reply' button at the bottom of the thread.

[postnet]

Question for Vin on directing - I notice in the credits for AFV that you're listed as director as well as producer. Were you a director before AFV, or did you expand into multi-camera directing as a result of the show?

[Syd Vinnedge]

Sleeping with an agent has been done successfully many times in the past. Hiring a lawyer might also work but just as with the above it will be expensive. If your project is incredible (as I am sure it is) partnering with a known entity is probably better.
Another option is to work your way up in an orginisation until your are a producer and have relationships (and experience) and then go out on your own. Or work your way up the network ladder as an employee until you are at a point where they trust and value you to such an extent that they will take the risk with one of your projects. And you will be in a position to partner with one of their suppliers if need be.

[ekaufman]

Hello Vin and Syd,

My writing partner, Tamara Maloney (Caucus Grant Winner, Fall 01) and I are researching the how the casts for reality shows are put together.

1. Can you describe the casting process for one of the reality shows you’ve worked on?

2. What kind of personality makes a good reality star, what kind of personality makes for a bad reality cast member?

3. When you make a sizzle reel to pitch, should you consider casting actors?

4. Who casts Reality TV? Are there special agencies? How does it differ from narrative/scripted TV?

5. Any other insights you can share about the casting process would be very helpful.

Thanks,

Eli Akira Kaufman
Caucus Grant Winner, Spring ‘04

[noshow]

What's the state of syndication in reality? Is it possible for a production company to make any money after a network run?

I've heard it's hard for show that have a season 'winner' like Amazing Race or Survivor to get syndicaiton. What about AFV, that still has a season winner, but each episode stands alone? Or a traditional game shows like Wheel of Fortune, or a show like The Price is Right? Is it worth designing a show that has a better chance at life in syndicaiton, and what show features improve or reduce its value in syndication?

[David Metzler]

Reminder that today is the last day to post questions - so if you have a final question or follow-up, post it before Tuesday!

[Vin Di Bona]

Seriously though - if I don't have any producer credits, will I have a shot at pitching a show idea? Would I be better off finding an entertainment lawyer?

If you are pitching an idea to a major company or network, they will not listen to the idea unless your project is accompanied with a lawyer’s letter. Keep in mind, a well written letter to an agent that is unique and short might grab the agent’s attention and spark a meeting with you. Don’t say you are “dedicated, hard working and work well with others”….every first timer uses that line. Be creative, toot your own horn, but be sincere.

[Vin Di Bona]

Question for Vin on directing - I notice in the credits for AFV that you're listed as director as well as producer. Were you a director before AFV, or did you expand into multi-camera directing as a result of the show?

Actually, I have been directing for 40 years…both documentary films and live studio productions. I put directing on hold for many years as I was producing many different projects. We still have a great many projects in development; however, I just wanted to jump back in about 10 years ago. I am blessed to have a great AD, EC Pauling, and she makes my life in the booth a snap!

[David Metzler]

1. Can you describe the casting process for one of the reality shows you’ve worked on?

2. What kind of personality makes a good reality star, what kind of personality makes for a bad reality cast member?

3. When you make a sizzle reel to pitch, should you consider casting actors?

4. Who casts Reality TV? Are there special agencies? How does it differ from narrative/scripted TV?

5. Any other insights you can share about the casting process would be very helpful.


Here is the reply from Syd:

My response to Eli is rather convoluted. The preamble might be "what is reality". Are game shows reality, news, talent etc ? Greg thinks it relates to the use of unions/guilds. In game we never use the WGA and often avoid the DGA. I think the explosion in "contemporary" reality relates to technology.
If you are casting "Idol" or "Last Comic..." talent is #1. I suspect if you are casting "Survivor" or "The Apprentice" your guidelines would be similar to what we employ on "Price".
Rule #1 is to find entertaining individuals.
Rule #2 is to put together a broad demographic mix which relates to the audience we have/want. On a narrowly defined cabler such as MTV or vh1 you pick players who mirror those young hip audiences. For "Price" we go for young and old, male and female, skinny and heavy, black, white, yellow, and brown, and we always like members of the armed forces. But you always go back to rule number one.
In terms of personality I believe it is a jigsaw puzzle. Mary Ellen Bunim felt the two key elements relative to "Real World" were casting and editing. And watching "Real World" you can analyze the dynamic employed in picking a group of diverse and telegenic personalities.
There are specific firms set up to cast reality and not surprisingly the networks are VERY involved. I know that Moonves sat with all the "Survivor" candidates !

[David Metzler]

What's the state of syndication in reality? Is it possible for a production company to make any money after a network run?


Here is Syd Vinnedge's reply:

Syndication and reality is divided just as you suggest....if it is a closed ended show. AFV, Cops, Judge Judy, etc. can do great in syndication. Programs which are hooked/serialized don't since they are usually once a weekers and built for a season so you can't get enough of them for a strip run. The economics of syndication dictates repeats (sometimes an enormous #) and therefore the whole serialized/cliffhanger aspect works against you. David Lyle at FOX Reality has somewhat of a market for that genre of reality.
The syndication market is very difficult right now. The economy and the competition from cable and the internet are killing them. You need to barter and you are better off with an off network survivor (Millionaire) or a star (Marie Osmond).

[David Metzler]

Well we've come to the end of a great Q&A thread. Please join me in thanking our guests Vin Di Bona and Syd Vinnedge for joining us and we'll see you next time!